He has not mincing words. She had never had them. And at just 80 years of age and a long experience behind him, he thinks that more than retiring, he can continue helping to build, especially in these times of crisis that he knows well. Just two months ago she was the Minister of Agriculture of the Petro government, but she was one of those who came out in the midst of the President’s shock. Now, already in the distance and as leader of the Cisoe think tank, he breaks his silence.
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Was the cause of your departure really your opposition to expropriation?
Rural reform was slow. Although Fedegán had not offered land, many of them did not correspond to the areas of greatest demand in which the President said that we are concentrating. I had a plan to find 6 million hectares in that area. That’s when I realized that the President was upset and the idea began to emerge that we had to be tougher. One day they called me from the Palace and told me that an article from the Development Plan had arrived with which it could be expropriated. I immediately called Gerardo Vega (director of the National Land Agency) and told him: how are you doing this without consulting me? He replied that he fulfilled the mandate of the President. So I went there and Laura (Sarabia) arrived with Gerardo, which seemed unusual to me. I asked whose item it was. Of the president. And I hit the table and said: I am a Democrat, I am not going to expropriate and you have my irrevocable resignation. When I got out of there, Laura called me and she told me that the President had withdrawn it. At that moment I felt that she was backed up, or silly!
But a little over a month passed and they took it out…
The Liberal Party or the Conservative Party did not name me. He named me and when I asked him that he was leaving because he said that I represented the establishment, something that seemed strange to me. So, I do believe that I came out because of that vision. The proof of this is that the next day the new minister (Jhenifer Mojica), even without taking office, and Vega went to Congress and tried to put the article back in, but in the end it did not stay.
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Mojica said at the beginning that it had not been «a priority» for the Government to make a land law. What would he tell her?
I don’t want to get into a confrontation with her. I am one of the people that when they leave, they leave. The only thing I ask of everyone is: be sure of what you are going to say. The President succeeded me before I left, 6 million hectares ready to go.
Have you always felt comfortable with the type of cabinet made?
From the beginning I threw a lot of flowers at that type of cabinet: having people with more experience and activists, who reach those positions for the first time. I believe that we have a merit that I do believe we will recognize, and that is that we did not arrive because of an ideological commitment, but because of a commitment to the program.
The possibility of expropriating land was an issue that former minister López never agreed with, when she tried to raise it in the current government.
Twitter @AgenciaTierras
How much do you think it hurt you to have obtained in the letter against the health reform?
That they called us to participate in the health debate seemed to me to be taking advantage of and mixing those positions. I felt confident and the meetings were positive despite the radical nature of (the then Minister of Health Carolina) Corcho. But then everything became more critical. However, I thought it was over because in the first crisis José Antonio (Ocampo, then Minister of Finance) and I were told to stay. Of course, Alejandro (Gaviria, outgoing Minister of Education) hurt us a lot. And something began to emerge that they have to change and that is that when you are in the Government you cannot take it as a personal project.
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Who says it for?
I am listening to several ministers. One’s life project stays there and that is what began to show a difference between those of us who know that it is not possible and those who do it.
And how are you now seeing the cabinet crisis from afar?
It does not surprise me, there is no president who passes through the Government without having a crisis that marks him. And part of his success is the way he handles it. From Turbay, passing through Betancur or Samper, I have seen many crises up close.
And do you think it is being handled well?
I think we have reached a breaking point. We are at a point where further polarization is impossible. This has reached aggressive levels. The banners of the marches seemed very aggressive to me. It is not like that. Nor did I agree with the aggressiveness in the march of petrism.
What do you suggest doing about it?
Rather than lament, this is the time for fundamental change. It gave me great peace of mind to read in EL TIEMPO that businessmen say that we must work in harmony with the Government. That seems to me a very positive step and I hope that the Government understands that it cannot carry out its project alone. I’m sure the President sees it that way. What worries me is that his team doesn’t, because sometimes I see them in an attitude of good and bad. And that can’t go on like this. The good ones are not the loyal ones and the bad ones are those who do not belong to the party. This is not for traitors and loyalists. That word has to be deleted.
Why do you think it’s a break?
Because the economic situation is not as we thought and there are already worrisome signs of a slowdown. I would like to tell the President that we are all the people, not just the poor or the marginalized. I feel as much of the Colombian people as any indigenous or Afro. What I do believe is that we should put the fight behind us and forget this first year.
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But businessmen have told many of the reforms not to…
Entrepreneurs cannot continue in the negative vein. I think they were wrong. The Colombian establishment made a mistake in the first months of the government because they were very negative and they forced the President to become radicalized and he feels cornered and that cannot be. One cannot corner a president, because a president with a personality as strong as Petro’s reacts like that and that does not suit him, his project or the country. Entrepreneurs have to begin to be aware that we are in a left-wing government. What is inconceivable is that Colombia is an upper middle income country and has these levels of poverty and inequality. And that was the product of governments that were not progressive or not progressive enough. Then we got an opportunity to do something different. Let’s take advantage of it, but let’s do it without killing ourselves. Everyone has to check their speech.
That they all give in and work hand in hand?
Yes, I think it is time to split the Government in two and start in a different way. I found the President’s speech too harsh, but I also find it terrible that Congress is looking to see who is more aggressive. I am terrified as a former senator of how it is working out. Without detracting from the market places, the Congress seems to me a market place. Dignity was lost, they insult each other. One goes and it’s a mess. That cannot be the line of Colombia, whose fight is more. It takes zero offense from side to side. We need the government to work in harmony with everyone and there are no insults.
And what do you propose to make the next few years different?
Since I was in government, I said in the Council of Ministers that there should be a countercyclical policy and that this corresponded to everyone, not only the Minister of Finance and Planning.
What specific measures do you think would be effective?
Efforts can be concentrated on increasing public spending to improve productive capacity. The Government has money, that yes that is necessary to recognize him to Petro. What is the danger? That the subsidies become a poverty trap. These do not increase production and some revivals arrive, take advantage and steal them. We must build a productive capacity, so that people are able to insert themselves into the country’s development system.
Specifically, what would you imagine?
For example, in the popular economy, take advantage of lower interest rates and help identify projects. Or see how the problem of people who have gotten into debt and who do not have access to cheap credit is solved. Also teach them technology and link them to productive activities where they are most needed.
Street sales have skyrocketed in the main cities of the country.
But this government has just launched the Citizen Income, do you see it well?
I told the President on many occasions. You have to be very careful with subsidies. What happened to the 30 years of conditional transfers? That we create the vulnerable. We were unable to create a middle class out of poverty and we consolidated the role of women as caregivers. So, I believe that subsidies cannot be social policy, this has to be the best education, the best health, productive capacity and employment. Otherwise, we turn people into ‘profession: being poor’.
Do you think that the people who remain in the cabinet are in line with those policies?
I believe that valuable people remain there and even if they wanted to erase what we did, they couldn’t. But what does worry me and, saying that I value activism very much, is that this cannot be at the point of activism. It is impossible because activism has no experience and does not know the limits that being in the State requires.
There has been a lot of talk about the energy transition in this government, what is your position?
The President’s message that Colombia has to be part of the climate change process is fully supported, but I have several divergences. The first mistake is not knowing that time is needed and that the agricultural sector is key. And the other problem is that the discourse that we are giving is that of the rich countries, that of mitigation, when we have a minimal footprint. There is another thing that Colombia can do. For example, the economist Ricardo Hausmann came to the beginning of the Government and said that it is necessary to identify which minerals the country has for sustainable development.
So, do you disagree with the repeated ideas, for example, by Minister Irene Vélez?
The Government reproduces the discourse of the rich countries, which is to reduce the footprint, when ours is insignificant. Our problem is inequality, poverty, etc. Of course we can do things in terms of mitigation, but not only reduce the little that we pollute, but also offer the minerals that can help. We need to see if we have lithium. I said this and I think many people thought it was very good. Minister Vélez said that I had wanted to say something else, but no, I am ratifying myself.
But do you think that it is necessary to gradually stop depending on oil?
Sure, without a doubt. We have to move, but that cannot be done from one day to the next. Where will 51 percent of Colombia’s exports come from? From 4 avocados, 5 plums and 4 cape gooseberries? It is necessary to make a transition, but it takes a gigantic effort and time.
NOELIA CIGÜENZA RIAÑO
Economics and Business Deputy Editor
On Twitter: @noe_cig